jehovahs bigmouth witnesses as we know......preach that salvation apart from them isn't possible.
evidently, all earnest bible believers had no hope untill jehovahs organisation showed up to lead them there.
they actually believe they alone are gods instuctors and that all mankind should learn through them alone.. one has to wonder....since jehovah had no visable organisation for nearly two thousand years.....how were christs diciples to benefit?.
Quite right Gumby. What did happen to his organisation from then till the 1900's??? Simple answer there wasnt one. If there had of been how come Russell did not come in contact with it but branched out on his own taking the idea's of the adventists.
Arnie
the talk given today sounded pretty convincing.
facts were stated about how our body is designed to live forever (the brain, blood vessels etc) and how all these intricated details about the human body raises us to ask the question: "did not jehovah design us with the purpose of living forever?
now i've read the threads about how there just would not be enough room in the world for all those people.
Having just read the new testament over christmas for the first time in a complete reading and without watchtower bias, I came to conclude what had bothered me for a long time that it was surely a heavenly hope.
Also as has been mentioned what was the original purpose for man? Do we really know? Witnesses assume if they (Adam & Eve) never ate of the forbidden fruit man would never have died, but what seems to be indicated is that he would have needed to have eaten from the tree of life, and so all God did was prevent that, so he was always going to die until God gave him the fruit of that tree - which must have been his purpose. So the scripture in Revelation that I think Auld refered to is linking a restoration of God's original purpose but we know these were going to heaven. At least thats how I read it.
Also one further point, say they didnt eat of the forbidden fruit and lived forever as you suggest (or the Watchtower does at least) then were they to have been ignorant of right and wrong not being aware of their nakedness too, will that be your hope in paradise in line with the original purpose as you see it??
I really dont think God's complete purpose was fulfilled so we can not catagorically say what it really was can we.
Arnie
hi everyone, i am supposed to meet with an elder tonight.
i met several times with him before going over questions (my mother thinks he will restore my evil thinking).
anyway we have already gone over all of the basics (1874,1914,607 no answer for this one, the un and everything else).
Interestingly on the point of inserting the name Jehovah in the new testament or christian greek scriptures as they refer to them, they say that the the original text was changed (makes you wonder what else is too??) And that no two copies are the same. Although the name itself is not known and therefore how can one include it, there are some old testament quotes where the name would have appeared and so I agree with the argument to replace god and lord in those instances but to what? To this name Jehovah they have adopted or perhaps the hebrew letters?
In either case having just read this portion of the bible over christmas for the first time in a complete sense without their bias, it seems to me to be written for that time only, there doesnt seem to me to be any indication of anything beyond the destruction of the temple, indeed never was anyone told to translate it, if it was supposed to be then surely inspired writters would have to have done this work.
Arnie
as a witness, i knew several men who attempted to grow beards.
when they did, and attended meetings, it did not take long to be talked to by elders and told, "as spiritual men, they should not display an outward form of rebellion.
" why was this a form of rebellion?
Great topic! Like many of you I never understood the reasoning that we couldnt grow a beard as Jehovah had created us to and that we were using man's fashion of shaving??!!
I got the same reasoning of the hippie explaination, and that why put my wishes above stumbling others etc...well I grew my beard on and off so many times over the years because I simply disagreed with the attitude I was getting. I remember one Watchtower study and it had a picture of a husband and wife and was about doing things so that the unbeliever would see a good example. Well the man in the picture had a goaty which was well groomed and he was neatly dressed, and so one elder answers that its obviously the man who is the unbeliever as he has the beard! Unreal!
One MS did grow a goaty and got a part on the assembly program, but was asked to do one thing before being included - you guessed it, remove the offending beard!
Arnie
overtime, overtime!
the thing that was a kill-joy for me was going overtime, just ask my wife and kids.
my entire day would be ruined.
I think the only people who get on ok are those that are self righteous or those who can hear things but forget them straight away. I heard all I had to do and when you inevitably cant live up to it the guilt trip starts. At one meeting we heard a talk about making peace with someone not holding a grudge, so I decided to go up to this elders daughter who had moved congregations due to a bust up with my fleshly sister, that was visiting. I started by saying hello and she then stunned me by saying 'why are you talking to me' and then led off in a tarade of abuse at me and my family, I was so gob smacked that I said I was sorry if thats how she felt and it was never my intention to come across as she described, now hows that for heeding the council we had both just 'heard'!
Arnie
i think the biggest reason someone maintains their faith in the wts is because the wts is the "ticket" to paradise earth.. how did you deal with the prospect that the "ticket" salesmen weren't totally reliable?.
did it cause you to let go of your hope in paradise earth?
did it redirect it to another hope?.
Paradise for me wasnt real for a few reasons, one, my nagging doubts that the scriptures didnt seem to be talking about a paradise at all, two, that I was never going to make it, and three, that if the congregation was an example of how paradise would be with all the politics and guilt that I didnt want to go there anyhow
Arnie
when i was young and single and a witness.
i remember often the fear older people had of putting young people together alone.
not just for dating, but even leaving them in a car while an older couple went to a return visit.
Didnt some of your brothers make the sisters sit in the back if they were alone together! lol.
I think they served to highten the mystery of sex that we all became obsessed by it, no wonder so many of us gave into temption - I mean honestly your body is naturally going through changes and then your told to deny it all including masturbation, I lived in guilt for so long over that, I can remember being in tears before the elders at my judicial, saying I have stopped the fornication but I keep failing at masturbation. For me that was one of the many things that I realised was so wrong with it, I mean does anyone tell you how to masturbate? No you just try it and it happens, whats more natural than that?
comments you will not hear at the 12-18-05 wt study (november 15, 2005 issue)(walk)(abbreviated)
review comments will be in red
wt material from today's wt will be in black
Well put together blondie!
watchtower 1995 october 15 p.26 what future for the sheep and the goats?.
admittedly, the number of anointed christians left on earth is declining.
however, as long as the anointed, making up the faithful and discreet slave, continue to provide spiritual food and direction, prospective sheep have an opportunity to do good to the slave class, just as the great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples have done.
Most R&F will try desperately to supress any thoughts that the number seems to be relatively stable for ages, no doubt new light will flash up for a whole new generation of members (what I mean by generation is anyone's guess...right GB???)
Arnie
jw's are taught that their love is what identifies them as true christians.
but typing on another thread let me to this discovery:.
what i expected from witness friends and what i expect from my friends now are totally different.
A great topic! So true what everyone has said and observed. I now see an Elder and his wife in the local supermarket and he was the sort that had many petty rules about where to sit and the like! And yet he would wander around the back during the meetings looking at the notice board and playing with his keys/money, which distracted those at the back even more than usual . One time my wife and I had fallen out with him after having children and seeing his 'looks' over at us as the kids made some noise that my wife burst into tears whilst giving a talk! Ok now looking back its like why let them get to us, but now I can look at him and think he you know I dont like you and whats more I never did and I no longer have to pretend to be your friend as you dont me. Ok I dont want to advocate hating people but I only brought it up as we are talking about the type of love shown in a typical cong.
Arnie
